Dating A Burny Les Paul
Number 1 is a Japanese made Greco, but it's from the early - mid 70s and more than likely has a bolt-on neck. These earlier models tended to use those cheaper keystones. It could very well be an 81 but as far as I know, all Greco Les Pauls were using two-screw truss rod covers by that time. Someone can correct me on that.
My guess is that it's a 75' due to it having a 3 screw TRC but 'Greco' instead of 'Gneco' on the headstock like the early ones did. If the serial starts with a 1 though, it's probably an 81 like the seller said.For more accurate Greco Les Paul copies, look at the 79 - 82 Super Real series, as well as the 82-90 Mint Collection series.Number 2 is a Japanese made Burny, my guess would be from the 90s.Number 3 is either a Korean or Chinese made Burny. Scott, normally I'd agree on getting an Edwards, but I must recommend that no MLP members buy this guitar until you get Ishibashi to show you thorough pictures. This guitar has been listed before by them (and was sold about 2 weeks ago) and it had a big run-off of what looks like paint thinner near where the top bout strap button would be, as well as a re-drilled strap button hole if I recall correctly.
In the description, ishibashi list it as 'lacquer alteration and melting' but they show no photos of it.I knew immediately what guitar this was by seeing that god awful pickguard they've stuck on it. Ishibashi is deceiving their customers on this guitar, probably because it took half a year to sell to begin with and then was returned shortly after being sold a couple weeks ago. I hope they show the photos or sell it for much less. If it gets listed for 30,000 yen or less I might buy it and do a natural re-finish on it.OP: If you are considering buying online rather than locally, I do recommend Edwards. I'd get an LTS or LTC model if you can, as these have lacquer top coating, or better yet, an ALS or ALC Edwards as these come with all lacquer finishing. I've got an e-lp-130als and I love mine to death. It comes with duncans, cts pots, switchcraft switches and jacks, as well as all gotoh hardware.
Pretty amazing value and they regularly pop up on digimart for 50-65,000 yen. You've just got to be quick. Number 1 is a Japanese made Greco, but it's from the early - mid 70s and more than likely has a bolt-on neck. These earlier models tended to use those cheaper keystones. It could very well be an 81 but as far as I know, all Greco Les Pauls were using two-screw truss rod covers by that time.
Someone can correct me on that. My guess is that it's a 75' due to it having a 3 screw TRC but 'Greco' instead of 'Gneco' on the headstock like the early ones did. If the serial starts with a 1 though, it's probably an 81 like the seller said.For more accurate Greco Les Paul copies, look at the 79 - 82 Super Real series, as well as the 82-90 Mint Collection series.Number 2 is a Japanese made Burny, my guess would be from the 90s.Number 3 is either a Korean or Chinese made BurnyFairly sure the #4 is a late 80s - mid 90s Tokai (in the mid-80s they switched to TLC and TLS before returning to LS and LC some time in the 90s iirc).
I think there may be an extra denomination on the end of the model number than usual (e.g. 580 would be a guitar that retailed for 58,000 yen whenever the guitar was released).I'd recommend trying number 2 or number 4.Scott, normally I'd agree on getting an Edwards, but I must recommend that no MLP members buy this guitar until you get Ishibashi to show you thorough pictures. This guitar has been listed before by them (and was sold about 2 weeks ago) and it had a big run-off of what looks like paint thinner near where the top bout strap button would be, as well as a re-drilled strap button hole if I recall correctly. In the description, ishibashi list it as 'lacquer alteration and melting' but they show no photos of it.I knew immediately what guitar this was by seeing that god awful pickguard they've stuck on it. Ishibashi is deceiving their customers on this guitar, probably because it took half a year to sell to begin with and then was returned shortly after being sold a couple weeks ago. I hope they show the photos or sell it for much less.
If it gets listed for 30,000 yen or less I might buy it and do a natural re-finish on it.OP: If you are considering buying online rather than locally, I do recommend Edwards. I'd get an LTS or LTC model if you can, as these have lacquer top coating, or better yet, an ALS or ALC Edwards as these come with all lacquer finishing.
Burny Guitars
I've got an e-lp-130als and I love mine to death. It comes with duncans, cts pots, switchcraft switches and jacks, as well as all gotoh hardware. Pretty amazing value and they regularly pop up on digimart for 50-65,000 yen. You've just got to be quick. Lots of information here!Curious about what you said with the RLC-50 that it could possible be made in Korea or China. Seller is firm that this was made in Japan so I'm still getting the serial number for further verification.
But was there really no RLC-50 in Japan? What's the difference with RLG-50?I just saw this previous posting of RLC-50 which was made in JapanTo be honest, I just don't like the name 'Edwards' for a guitar. I know that it is well regarded as awesome axe around here but I just can't stand using that on-stage That name irks me for no reason at all.Oh and I've both before in Ishibashi a nice Fender MIJ Strat and it was absolutely fantastic. They graded it as 'B' but it came almost in excellent condition and their customer support was very responsive.So in your opinion, 2nd Burny Custom's the best and second Tokai?Thanks again. I observed it was korean or chinese simply because 3 screw truss rod covers aren't usually present on Japanese Les Paul copies, though this isn't always true.
It could very well be from Japan, and looking at other listings, it appears this is the case. The difference between the RLC-50 and RLG-50 is that the LG is a standard, and the LC is a custom. There's actually a fair bit of information on the older Japanese guitars in the stickied thread here:RE: Edwards guitars, each to their own, but I personally can't connect with not choosing a guitar because you don't like the name. I'd much prefer a guitar with a one piece back, one piece neck, Seymour Duncans, Gotoh hardware and nitro finish over an entry level Greco or Burny that's hardly at all similar to an actual Les Paul, beyond the shape. You've got to remember that whilst a lot of Japanese guitars look the same, they aren't necessarily so. Typically, the higher the model number, the better specs it will have. That Edwards you linked is overpriced, too.
A top of the range one with nitro finish could be imported into the US for about $700 from Japan.This is all subject to how the guitar actually plays in your hands of course, as good specs and an enjoyable guitar don't necessarily fall hand in hand every time, but to quarrel over the name of a guitar, seems a bit daft to me. Unless you're playing to a crowd of guitarists (yawn), I don't think anyone is going to give much of a shit. Heck, my girlfriend regularly asks me why I keep buying the same guitar over and over when all my Les Pauls are different brands.Also RE: Ishibashi. Normally they're great, as are all Japanese retailers. They tend to err on the side of caution when selling to avoid customer dissatisfaction.
I think they've just deliberately not shown the picture of the melted lacquer on the upper bout edge because they've had such difficulty selling it. Honestly, unless the serial starts with a 1, there is no way that is a 1981. Along with the weird routes and hollowness underneath you've mentioned, the seller has conveniently not shown shots of the back, where a bolt-on neck would be evident. That top bit makes that guitar look hollow.I've not heard of these plywood guitars, but the Matsumoku factory has done some quite bizarre stuff, in fact. When the guitar boom took off, Japanese factories in the early 60s couldn't keep up with the demand, and many of the guitars coming out of Japan from the 60s were quite awful.
It's actually quite surprising that over the course of a few years in the late 70s and early 80s, Greco had shifted from bolt-on, pancake bodied, maple-necked and volute guitars over to quite authentic replicas.That said, Matsumoku made some great guitars I think, especially when they weren't trying to copy an existing design. A local shop near me regularly stocks older Matsumoku-made Grecos and they're fantastic in their own right, but they're nothing like a Gibson or Fender. The FujiGen and Tokai factories really mastered the copies in the early days. The 1st one with the Maxon pickups is likely an equivalent of an Ibanez 2386 (set neck) or an Ibanez 2350 (bolt neck). 1974 to 1976 at latest. I have an unbranded version of the Ibanez 2386 and it is constructed more like an F-hole semi hollow, just w/o the F-holes. A bent to shape plywood top, butcher block pancake mahogany back.
8.3lbs is more pleasurable than a true LP shoulder breaker construction, fretless wonder frets you either would love or hate. It’s a fun guitar I enjoy playing but it’s not a true LP.
Unless you can try one out I wouldn’t advise skipping over a more true LP build that is a manageable weight.
Still curious.I'm afraid as CB says, the best way for that guitar is going to be to hope there is a date code on the pots.A couple things obvious, however, is the seriel, while IMPOSSIBLE for that guitar, put's it definitely in the range of about 70 to 75.Also, the neck being mahaogony.Deluxes LOOKED very much like this after, but in around '74 would have been Maple until like '79 or something. In other words more clearly, Hog 3 piece neck also means 70-74. (or maybe '69?)Also, from '69 to about '73, it will have a 'Pancake' body. Does it have that? A Pancake body is easy to tell, as it would have a thin maple stripe all the way around, being made from two thinner layers sandwhiching a thim maple sheet between them. If it doesn't, it's at least as new as '73, and still before '75.Just for fun, I'd also like to guess the weight: I'm gonna go with 9.9 pounds. Still curious.I'm afraid as CB says, the best way for that guitar is going to be to hope there is a date code on the pots.A couple things obvious, however, is the seriel, while IMPOSSIBLE for that guitar, put's it definitely in the range of about 70 to 75.Also, the neck being mahaogony.Deluxes LOOKED very much like this after, but in around '74 would have been Maple until like '79 or something.
In other words more clearly, Hog 3 piece neck also means 70-74. (or maybe '69?)Also, from '69 to about '73, it will have a 'Pancake' body. Does it have that? A Pancake body is easy to tell, as it would have a thin maple stripe all the way around, being made from two thinner layers sandwhiching a thim maple sheet between them. If it doesn't, it's at least as new as '73, and still before '75.Just for fun, I'd also like to guess the weight: I'm gonna go with 9.9 pounds.Hi, Thanks for your help.I have tried to attach a further photo but site won't let me.From the back it looks like there is a thin strip around the edge, but only looks like a single strip.I will take the cover of tomorrow and check the pots, and weigh itCheers! I'd go along with that, Stein.It seems likely that early '74 would be a good guess as Gibson switched from a 3-piece mahogany neck to a 3-piece maple neck sometime around mid-'74.That serial number also dates from '74 according to the Ian C. Bishop book (FWIW).But, as has been said, if the pots are the originals they could be a good indicator.Use this;P.I could only read numbers on two of the pots but they don't correspond to the format for the pot code reader.They are 4029 304-7309 and the other is 70-027 13772, so I guess they are not original.And it does have a pancake body.Cheers Geoff.
I could only read numbers on two of the pots but they don't correspond to the format for the pot code reader.They are 4029 304-7309 and the other is 70-027 13772, so I guess they are not original.And it does have a pancake body.Cheers Geoff304-7309 is a Stackpole pot, and that was one of the 'origonal equipment' pots used by Gibby. I think this means 9th week or '73, or 309th day of '77. I'm a little rusty, but if I remember right, most pot codes date on the week rather than the day.The 304, by the way, is Stackpole. Or Centralab. I think Stackpole.137 is the code for CTS, also used by Gibby. Now here, I am going to guess that the REST of the numbers are under solder on this one, because 13772X makes sense, and 13772XX would also make sense. CTS codes almost always read 137 (meaning CTS) followed by the year followed by week.
In some cases, one digit for year, and in some cases, 2 digits for year.Now, it isn't all that uncommon for guitars to be made with different brand pots in the same guitar. How common for that period, I don't know. And also, there isn't anything that says one didn't fail and get replaced, and if replaced, date codes are more meaningless because a pot could sit for a long time before being used in a shop. So, like a guy could replace a pot in 1980 with a 1975 pot pretty commonly.Another thing you might do is look at the pots carefully, and note differences, to see if 3 LOOK the same and one different, or 2 pairs, etc. If you have 3 here that look the same, and there are numbers you can't read, you might be able to read some off one pot and other numbers off another.
That can put you close.I think Pippy has it right as well, that's it's at least '74 and before, and the seriel works for '74. But, with a Pancake body, I think that means it could also be as early as the earliest date for the seriel number, which I think is '70.Getting closer, eh? '76 models, like mine, also had 'pancake bodies' (4 layers.maple cap, 2 thicker mahogany pieces, with at thin maple layer, in between the thicker mahogany layers.) It waighs as much, as my '80 Les Paul Custom, as well! Very solid, with great tone, and sustain. I did have to have the stock pickups (it still has) wax potted, as they started to have microphonic feedback (after 30 some years)awhile back, but that was no big deal. And, as you might assume, they sound even better, now!CBWhoa Charlie!Now I'm confused!
And I have to know: Is this a Pancake body with a Maple neck? If so, I might be leaning something (or re-learning something, because really, who can remember all this stuff?)Sinse we are heavy on the 007 type mystery investigating, do you have other details handy as in what type of pots, date codes, and seriel for that?
Stein.I've had the tone controls replaced, for a more gradual roll off,as opposed to 'nothing' until the last 3 numbers, then 'whoa!' LOL BUT.I still have them, 'just in case,' I ever want to put it back 'stock!' Their numbers.what I can see anyway, are both identical: 137761 70-134.The neck is the 3-piece maple version.I bought it 'used,' in '77.in a shop, in Overland Park, Kansas. I had theback and neck refinished, as I hated the old 'stock' busting, on the back.especially the neck.and, the back and neck were in bad shape, finish wiseanyway. The front is still 'Stock!'
I also had the headstock width reduced,as well. (I never really cared for those 'Ping-Pong Paddle' wide headstocks,that were all too common, at that time!) This, of course, was years beforeall this 'Vintage' craze, and 'collector's value' stuff. I just wanted it,the way 'I' wanted it.
Sure, it degraded it's 'collectibilty' value.but,that wasn't even an issue, back then.and, I've never owned a guitar yet,for that reason, anyway.It also has a flatter fingerboard radius.more like my LP Custom, in that way.Don't know if that's 'stock' for that year, or if the previous owner did it.I don't think it was altered, though, as it sure didn't seem like it, at thetime. It was only later, after playing several older, and later versions, thatI realized mine was 'different,' that way.Anyway, that's a bit of it's 'history.' But, for me.It's a keeper, for sure.since I've already had it now, for 36 years. Geoff, Here is the twin of your deluxe.
Mine is a 73. I bought it new in November 1973. 40 years ago, damn I'm old. The pot codes are from June 1973. Your serial number is before mine. Mine is 173xxx. I don't know if you can go by that because, as everyone said, Gibson was consistent with serial numbers until 1979 or was it 78?
I don't know, but its very easy to remove the cover and see the pot codes.BTW Charlie, I've commented on yours before, but its a beauty.NICE! See, your's has a 'wider' headstock, but NOT NEARLY as wide, as some did, inthe later years! Mine was obscenely wide (to me, anyway).so, I had (just) the widthreduced.and, added the Grovers, as well. I still have the stock Kluson 'Double-ringed,'tuners, and.even still have the wood pieces, that were sawed off, to reduce the headstock. LOLI notice, too.that your earlier version, has a more 'rounded' horn, whereas later, they weremore 'pointed,' like mine.
No big deal, just 'interesting.' 'Norlin Era' guitars seemed to be'all over the map,' spec wise.CB. See, your's has a 'wider' headstock, but NOT NEARLY as wide, as some did, inthe later years! Mine was obsenely wide (to me, anyway).so, I had (just) the widthreduced.and, added the Grovers, as well. I still have the stock Kluson 'Double-ringed,'tuners, and.even still have the wood pieces, that were sawed off, to reduce the headstock. LOLI notice, too.that your earlier version, has a more 'rounded' horn, whereas later, they weremore 'pointed,' like mine.
No big deal, just 'interesting.' 'Norlin Era' guitars seemed to be'all over the map,' spec wise.CBThat's interesting you bring up the horn shape and the headstock shape.I don't know if it has anything to do with it, but the Deluxe model (and a buttload of others) were made at two different factories- both Kalimazoo and Nashville. My understanding is that the Deluxe was made from almost the beginning of the Nashville coming in, but still made in 'Kalimazzo as well at the same time.So, to me, you would think that maybe where it was made would have something to do with the 'radically' different shapes, but I have seen some models that I KNOW were Kalimazzo made with the point and big headstock, and the other way around. If there is a way to tell where it was made looking at it, I don't know what it is.Another thing: I am pretty sure the funky shape differences go all the way back to the beginning of the model, or at least some of them. Again I can't put any rhyme or reason to it.And BTW.you mention the pots you took out as 137761.
Doesn't that make them '77? That's interesting you bring up the horn shape and the headstock shape.I don't know if it has anything to do with it, but the Deluxe model (and a buttload of others) were made at two different factories- both Kalimazoo and Nashville. My understanding is that the Deluxe was made from almost the beginning of the Nashville coming in, but still made in 'Kalimazzo as well at the same time.So, to me, you would think that maybe where it was made would have something to do with the 'radically' different shapes, but I have seen some models that I KNOW were Kalimazzo made with the point and big headstock, and the other way around. If there is a way to tell where it was made looking at it, I don't know what it is.Another thing: I am pretty sure the funky shape differences go all the way back to the beginning of the model, or at least some of them. Again I can't put any rhyme or reason to it.And BTW.you mention the pots you took out as 137761. Doesn't that make them '77?I only 'know' what I was told, when I bought it.'
It's an early '76!' And, what I've been told, for years, that 'it was, indeed, a '76.' Could it be, a '77? I suppose so, but it seems unlikely, given the condition of the back and neck (unless they drug it behind a car), originally.as I bought it, in the late Spring, of '77. So, if it IS, a '77, it was abused, early!
Of course, now, you'd never have known that, unless/until I mentioned it, because of the excellent, professional refinish job, the sides, back, neck, and back of the headstock got. It's so well blended, that the decal (on the back of the headstock) looks to have been put on, AFTER the refinish, instead of the refinish paint, and blending, to match what was under the decal. I was thrilled, and amazed, at that level of detail. The refinish wasn't even that expensive, back then! The guy was an ex Gibson service, and repair person. So, he even used the exact paint formulas.and knew where to get them.So, I don't know, Stein.I guess, it 'could' be a '77??? Or, maybe the shop, I purchased it in, replace 'broken' pots, that year???
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See, your's has a 'wider' headstock, but NOT NEARLY as wide, as some did, inthe later years! Mine was obscenely wide (to me, anyway).so, I had (just) the widthreduced.and, added the Grovers, as well. I still have the stock Kluson 'Double-ringed,'tuners, and.even still have the wood pieces, that were sawed off, to reduce the headstock. LOLI notice, too.that your earlier version, has a more 'rounded' horn, whereas later, they weremore 'pointed,' like mine. No big deal, just 'interesting.' 'Norlin Era' guitars seemed to be'all over the map,' spec wise.CBHere it is with Klusons back on. I really don't see a different in the horn shape next to these others.
A 79 and an 04. I'm half blind though, so maybe it is. I only 'know' what I was told, when I bought it.' It's an early '76!'
And, what I've been told, for years, that 'it was, indeed, a '76.' Could it be, a '77? I suppose so, but it seems unlikely, given the condition of the back and neck (unless they drug it behind a car), originally.as I bought it, in the late Spring, of '77. So, if it IS, a '77, it was abused, early! Of course, now, you'd never have known that, unless/until I mentioned it, because of the excellent, professional refinish job, the sides, back, neck, and back of the headstock got. It's so well blended, that the decal (on the back of the headstock) looks to have been put on, AFTER the refinish, instead of the refinish paint, and blending, to match what was under the decal. I was thrilled, and amazed, at that level of detail.
The refinish wasn't even that expensive, back then! The guy was an ex Gibson service, and repair person. So, he even used the exact paint formulas.and knew where to get them.So, I don't know, Stein.I guess, it 'could' be a '77???
Or, maybe the shop, I purchased it in, replace 'broken' pots, that year??? LOLCBBTW, in 76, Gibson start numbering the serial numbers different. 76's have a serial number on a decal, and start with 00. I have two 76's. An es-175, and a B45. This is from the Gibson site:- From 1975-1977 the number is typically found on a decal on the back of the headstock. This should be an 8 digit number that can be dated by the 1st and 2nd digits as follows:99 = 197500= 197606 = 1977- In 1977, Gibson introduced the serialization method that we primarily use to this day at Gibson USA, Gibson Acoustic, and the Gibson Custom facility in Memphis, TN.
BTW, in 76, Gibson start numbering the serial numbers different. 76's have a serial number on a decal, and start with 00. I have two 76's.
An es-175, and a B45. This is from the Gibson site:- From 1975-1977 the number is typically found on a decal on the back of the headstock. This should be an 8 digit number that can be dated by the 1st and 2nd digits as follows:99 = 197500= 197606 = 1977- In 1977, Gibson introduced the serialization method that we primarily use to this day at Gibson USA, Gibson Acoustic, and the Gibson Custom facility in Memphis, TN.Yeah, the Decal was the main thing people 'in the know' used, as a reference.along with the 00's, atthe start of the serial number. So, by just those 2 criteria alone, mine is definitely a '76.Thanks, dponzi!CB. Here it is with Klusons back on. I really don't see a different in the horn shape next to these others.
A 79 and an 04. Yeah, the Decal was the main thing people 'in the know' used, as a reference.along with the 00's, atthe start of the serial number. So, by just those 2 criteria alone, mine is definitely a '76.Thanks, dponzi!CBSo.definitely a '76. Or at least, what we might CALL a '76.I'm starting to wonder though, that even though it has a '76 seriel number, if it still wasn't at the factory getting '77 pots.
Doesn't seem an outragious claim. I wonder if we don't have a similer situation as with Fenders had with the headstock decal numbers.such as the '79 numbers being used into '81.Or, maybe I just got my pot dating all mixed up again.